Experts At The Table: Where The Money Is
Friday, February 5th, 2010System-Level Design sat down to discuss where the value has shifted in the supply chain with Tom Quan, director at TSMC; Kalar Rajendiran, senior director of marketing at eSilicon; John Koeter, vice president of marketing in Synopsys’ solutions group, and Phil Yastrow, product marketing manager at Avago. What follows are excerpts of that conversation.
SLD: Do you get more value as a customer than before?
Rajendiran: The rule of thumb used to be that you got 15x your investment that was good. If you invested $30 million and you were going after a $450 million market that was good enough. The problem is that it’s no longer $30 million to do a 40nm chip, it’s more like $80 million. And on the other side the markets are no longer generalized. It’s no longer a $450 million market. It’s probably a $200 million market. So in the past you might have been satisfied with 30% market share. Now you need 80% market share. Moore’s Law is great, but the reality has changed the problem from a technology issue to a business issue. The ROI has to be higher. You can’t change the end market.
SLD: What differentiates one chip from another in the future? Is it software or hardware?
Rajendiran: It’s both. If you ask a software engineer and a hardware engineer they’ll have their own take on which one is more complicated, which is harder to test and which is harder to break. But the real smart companies figure out a way to not just build a chip, but also the firmware and the software stack. If software is completely new, there’s a higher probability it will have bugs in it.
Koeter: At 40nm, if you look at the total cost of a chip, the cost of the software will just exceed the cost of the hardware.
SLD: Is that the whole stack?
Koeter: It’s what a semiconductor company would develop. It used to be low-level drivers. Now it’s highly integrated, sophisticated software. But 40nm is the crossover point. So if you look at semiconductor companies, increasingly they’re creating value through software engineers and also their architects. They absolutely want to move up. Unfortunately, every semiconductor company I talk with says that while they put 50% of their costs into developing software, they don’t get any return on that. They don’t get to charge for the software.
SLD: Does that mean Synopsys going to buy an RTOS company?
Koeter: We have a very strong push in this area. Recently we announced an M-language synthesis tool (Synphony). We’ve also been in virtual platforms for three or four years. Systems historically has been a very fractured space, but that’s getting to be a strong opportunity for EDA companies.
SLD: Is the value in the pieces or the integration?
Yastrow: Both. You have to have good IP and you have to have a way to integrate it. You have to have a way to make it work in a customer application. This comes back to channel modeling and how the package fits in. But it’s interesting when we start talking about software vs. hardware. It’s easy to argue that everything is software. People are writing RTL, getting the code to work, making sure they’ve covered all the corner cases and verifying it all. We’re seeing with Moore’s Law that verification is becoming a huge, huge chunk of the work.
Koeter: It’s 70% for the hardware, and then it depends on how you validate the software.
Yastrow: So not only do you need the great IP—memory, logic and I/Os—but you need someone to take that and integrate it first in the form of RTL, and then for the physical designers to make sure it meets timing and it meets power budgets.
SLD: At 32nm and 28nm we’re starting to see restrictive design rules. How does that affect all of this?
Quan: That’s for better yield in the long run.
SLD: But TSMC also is rating IP, right?
Quan: At 40nm we started asking customers and IP providers to run full DFM checks on IP blocks or the full design. It used to be recommended but not mandatory. One of the reasons for this is we’ve seen a lot of layout patterns that might not be reproduced perfectly in silicon. That will affect yield. At 28nm it gets even more difficult in terms of lithography, CMP and DFM. If we give the designer less freedom then it’s easier to validate and check and have better yield. You used to be able to put a lot of bends and jogs into a polygon. Now you try to have more regular structures with no bandwidth jogs. That will facilitate double patterning at future nodes, too.
Rajendiran: Customers don’t like restrictions of any kind. People are talking about orthogonal routing, which gives more flexibility. And companies are developing libraries so that when lithography progresses everything works fine at future geometries. If that can be achieved, every designer will be happy.
Quan: We build our own libraries and we collaborate with IP providers on theirs. Once you get the signal out to the pin and you do place and route, you also know which direction it should go. But it does require a joint effort from the IP provider, the company building the library, and the tool provider to make sure the whole design flow can use these new cells.
Koeter: It certainly makes life harder for an IP vendor. Now we have to worry about multiple layouts of the same IP block. You’re going to see more consolidation in the physical IP space.
Yastrow: We will find a way to deal with it. Competitively, everyone is dealt the same cards. But that’s not the only challenge. Voltage levels are also a problem. You’re trying to comply with standards back to the system level and getting the customer channel to work. You get a performance hit from a higher voltage level, and then the standards run at 1 volt instead of 0.85.
Koeter: USB has to have backward compatibility to 5 volts. Try doing 5-volt tolerance in a 1.8 volt I/O device.
SLD: Does a 3D stacked-die approach change where the value is—providing it works?
Quan: It’s a way to put more stuff in the same area. People have been going down the path of shrinking the die and getting more performance. But there’s always some technology that cannot scale down that easily, like analog and RF. In memory if you have 1 megabit and you want 4 megabits you build them horizontally or you stack them. That’s already been done. From an SoC perspective, where you’re mixing different blocks—memory, analog, RF, digital baseband—it’s a different approach to how you build them. But there will certainly be challenges. Through-silicon vias present more challenges in terms of validating the timing through these vias. And when you stack up things, the thermal profile will be different.
Yastrow: There are two things we know for sure. One thing is customers need more memory. The other thing we known is it’s becoming more difficult to combine an eDRAM process with a logic process and to be able to have them both optimized. Now you end up with tradeoffs. You optimize for the embedded memory or the logic. That’s why 3D where you have a memory chip and an ASIC that are tightly coupled is very real.
Koeter: One of our concerns as an IP vendor is whether 3D ICs will change the fundamental way chips are partitioned. Will all the analog be put in a 130nm or 180nm and the digital be put in a 32nm or 22nm chip. We’re looking at it all the time and talk to customers about it, but right now there’s no indication that’s a significant trend. People continue to integrate analog and digital with big ‘D’ little ‘a’ chips. What they’re doing in 3D is stacking memory on top of those chips.
Yastrow: Besides stacking we’re also seeing new standards developing beyond DDR3. You will still have a discrete chip. But I don’t think you’ll see as much embedded memory on chips. Maybe there will be some SRAM and DRAM, but it’s getting harder and harder to make those two match. So maybe you’ll have two side by side, instead of on top of each other, with an extremely high-speed link between them. That’s why some of these standards that are being developed, like GDDR5 (graphics double data rate, version 5).
Quan: There has been talk about a silicon interposer where instead of stacking them you connect them through a silicon substrate.
Rajendiran: That’s already happening. 3D is taking it to the next level. Will it happen? I think it will. The question is how soon. I don’t think it will happen in the next two or three years because it is easier said than done. It’s a bigger floor plan issue.
SLD: Does the highest value go to people solving the hardest problem, such as power modeling?
Yastrow: It’s a table stake. You have to reduce the power. You won’t necessarily get more money but you won’t lose the design.
Koeter: I absolutely agree. At least you won’t lose money.
Quan: The system-level spec is only getting harder and harder. Even though you leverage the latest process, so you can reduce power and leakage, you still have to have a lot of design techniques. If you have better power consumption, you have more chance of winning the design.
