Experts At The Table: Problems To Solve In 3D Stacking
Thursday, May 27th, 2010By Ed Sperling
System-Level Design sat down with Ravi Varadarajan, an Atrenta fellow; Geert Rosseel, vice president of technology at Arteris; Yankin Tanurhan, vice president and general manager of Virage Logic’s processor and NVM business units, and Mike Smayling, senior vice president of product technology at Tela Innovations. What follows are excerpts of that conversation.
SLD: What’s the advantage of going to 3D? Is it speed, re-use of IP or timing closure?
Rosseel: It’s heterogeneous integration. You’re not going to be able to move all your analog IP to each new process node. It’s too expensive and it’s increasingly difficult. Splitting application processors from modems, memory from the processor—that has to be the main driver. Otherwise chips will be too complicated and you won’t be able to test them.
Varadarajan: Analog makes a perfect business case, but speed is the second factor. When you look at 28nm, to get from IP No. 1 to IP No. 2 with a clock speed is 500MHz, 600 microns of wire takes up more than 1 nanosecond of delay. In two dimensions you cannot get every IP close enough to every other IP. You’ll hit a brick wall going to the newest process node because of the wire.
Tanurhan: It depends on what kind of chip you are talking about where you have to go up. The main driver is still cost—and all the derivatives of the cost. The second driver is connectivity. You cannot reach everything on the chip in a reasonable manner. We are running into more and more insularity problems. You want to have access to an IP block but you may have to wire too much. So you introduce many layers or directly connect, which keeps the cost down.
SLD: What’s the biggest impediment? Is it putting the chips together? Is it testing them?
Tanurhan: 3D has always been seen as a way to minimize time to volume. You have existing IP that is working and already has high yield. The only thing you have to do is move it to another die. But once you put those two dies together you have to test it. Was that IP made to be tested in this integrated mode? Maybe not. Now you are running into testability issues. Once you manage that, you have to sit down and make a cost calculation about whether you are saving anything. You are testing two dies, putting them together and testing them again. This isn’t free. We are seeing people having problems with this where they put two dies together and have lower yield. It’s not that easy. With memory we have a good handle on it. But if you have multiple chips with PHY’s on them, it may get very ugly very fast.
Varadarajan: If going to 3D requires you to re-tool your entire EDA flow, it’s not going to happen. There also need to be standards. Does a TSV go into a LEF file in technology node one or two or a new standard? How are the parasitics of the TSV going to be represented? What are the timing characteristics? But at the same time the most efficient way to get there is to keep the existing 2D tools working and build something on top of it so each die becomes a well-contained 2D problem.
SLD: For connectivity?
Varadarajan: Not just that. It’s even for prototyping of a 2D chip before actual implementation. If I’m putting a complex SoC together I have to take it through place and route to make every critical division as to how big a memory I need and where it’s going to be placed. That’s a very time-consuming flow. People work through it today by putting on more designers, but you can’t do that in 3D. You need to be able to make critical decisions up front. The prototyping technology needs to develop more than today. You need to be able to make what-if tradeoffs, and it needs to be correlated with what’s on the back end. If you can do that up front, you can extend the existing EDA tools. The challenges are standards on one side, and the other it’s the methodologies and the flows.
Rosseel: The next step is going to be a more manufacturable, denser solution for a stacked die. You don’t need a lot of new tools for that. You just need to partition it correctly. You can do it already, except from the manufacturing side.
Tanurhan: The problem you are talking about is similar to a PCB problem, and we are solving that already. The first 3D solutions were 2D. The dies were sitting next to each other—MCMs (multi-chip modules). Besides tooling, though, we will need standardization of the manufacturing, as well. Everyone has their own ideas about how to manufacture. For the tools people to make money, they need some standardization on manufacturing, as well.
Smayling: The EDA people should really embrace 3D because it’s like opening up a whole new can of worms. They can definitely add value to solutions here. One of my pet peeves for many years is that SPICE is isothermal. You have one parameter for telling you the temperature of the room, but the transistors are not all running at the same temperature. If you’ve got a chip with hot spots and you put another chip on top of it that, even if you’ve simulated and designed and it all works fine, when you put them together SPICE doesn’t know that. It wouldn’t even know when I designed the first chip that I had that problem. You need to be able to add a layer of insight in the IP to be able to understand what other IP is doing. There’s a tremendous opportunity. It’s a very big problem if you get out of constraint situations. You can put processors on memory. One company put DMDs (digital micromirror devices) on top of an SRAM. You can do that in a very constrained environment. But when you have an ASIC flow where it’s the Wild West, it’s going to take a lot of work.
SLD: The mapping of the thermal characteristics becomes extremely difficult if you don’t have a standard layout and way of putting these together, right?
Tanurhan: Yes, and that goes back to the manufacturing standards. You have to deal with temperature in placement. Today we are mainly driven by power, so we can indirectly influence it. Most of the power during place and route gives us an idea of where it will hit on the temperature. It’s could be a second-order effect, but you can use that to get the problem controlled. It depends on how many hot spots you can withstand on your chip. When you put two chips together and you get effects from that—that’s what we still cannot model very well. We are working on cooling between the two dies now.
Rosseel: Yes, they are developing heat sinks for that.
Varadarajan: If I have two dies and I’ve already done the partitioning and determined these IPs are going to be on die one and these memories are going to be on die two, obviously there is some communication between them. The simple approach is to floor-plan die one and figure out where these connection points are. That’s not the best way to do it, though. You need to look at these two floor plans simultaneously and figure out where the interconnects go. That’s where some of these problems can be dealt with like how do you reduce the thermal profile. If you can model it you can optimize it. You know which IPs can be on top of which IPs. Those are the new problems that can be solved in a layer up front. After that, each die is a 2D problem.
Rosseel: But you can only do that if you have full control of the whole design. You won’t have that because some of your chip is going to come from somewhere else or you’ll want to re-use the old one. It makes no sense to do everything from scratch. You will need some standards. The analog chip isn’t going to change for a number of years and the digital chip is going to spin every year.

