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	<title>Comments for ESL and HDL Design</title>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by ESL and HDL Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ESL: The Power Savior?</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>ESL and HDL Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ESL: The Power Savior?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-35</guid>
		<description>[...] Contact Us      &#171; Keeping the &#8220;E&#8221; in ESL [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Contact Us      &laquo; Keeping the &#8220;E&#8221; in ESL [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Shashi</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Shashi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-34</guid>
		<description>SystemC entering into AMS domain will further expand the definition of ESL further beyond just the digital design abstraction layers - RTL/TLM. See the link:
http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?section=ICNews&amp;articleid=627667.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SystemC entering into AMS domain will further expand the definition of ESL further beyond just the digital design abstraction layers &#8211; RTL/TLM. See the link:<br />
<a href="http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?section=ICNews&#038;articleid=627667" rel="nofollow">http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?section=ICNews&#038;articleid=627667</a>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Perry Alexander</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 02:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-33</guid>
		<description>This is a fascinating discussion.  As someone who has been working in system-level design since the late 80s and now chairs the Rosetta standards committee, I would posit that SLD should subsume ESL.  I am not diminishing its importance by saying that.  But, when a radio is put in an airplane, dealing with ESL becomes a domain within system-level design.  A bit too simplistic, but I&#039;m hoping the point is not too controversial.  If you&#039;re not dealing with system-level concerns - energy, cost, weight, security, heterogeneity, etc - you&#039;re not doing system-level design regardless of acronym, notation or tool.

What is exciting about TLM is the abstraction of data and communication.  One of my own frustrations with using traditional HDLs for system-level modeling is that once an interface is defined, it is almost impossible to refine data representation or communication mechanism.  TLM gives me the ability to model data communication without committing too early to a particular implementation.  It also provides a common abstraction for communication among heterogeneous components that is not biased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a fascinating discussion.  As someone who has been working in system-level design since the late 80s and now chairs the Rosetta standards committee, I would posit that SLD should subsume ESL.  I am not diminishing its importance by saying that.  But, when a radio is put in an airplane, dealing with ESL becomes a domain within system-level design.  A bit too simplistic, but I&#8217;m hoping the point is not too controversial.  If you&#8217;re not dealing with system-level concerns &#8211; energy, cost, weight, security, heterogeneity, etc &#8211; you&#8217;re not doing system-level design regardless of acronym, notation or tool.</p>
<p>What is exciting about TLM is the abstraction of data and communication.  One of my own frustrations with using traditional HDLs for system-level modeling is that once an interface is defined, it is almost impossible to refine data representation or communication mechanism.  TLM gives me the ability to model data communication without committing too early to a particular implementation.  It also provides a common abstraction for communication among heterogeneous components that is not biased.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Grant Martin</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Gene, I have to disagree with you on UML, since as a collection of modelling notations with the addition of profiles involving specific stereotypes, it can be used for building many different models, and has been.  In particular, there has been considerable work on using for modelling both hardware and software aspects of real time systems, and for SoC design including as a specification mechanism for SystemC.  With UML, given the generality of notations and the ability to define specific semantics on it, it is the use models that count, not the fact that it originated in the specification of software systems - one can argue it has been expanded greatly out of its original scope.  You should look at the ROOM methodology that started out at BNR, then ObjecTime, then Rational (ROSE-RT), then IBM - as written up in the book Real-Time Object-Oriented Modeling by Bran Selic , Garth Gullekson , Paul T. Ward (Wiley, 1994) for a thread that influenced UML 2.0 and went beyond just the software domain, and at more recent works such as UML for Real by Lavagno, Martin (that&#039;s me) and Selic (Springer, 2003), Executable UML by Stephen Mellor and  Marc Balcer (Addison-Wesley, 2002) and UML for SoC design (Mueller and Martin (that&#039;s me again), Springer, 2005) for modelling approaches that can indeed spill into the ESL domain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gene, I have to disagree with you on UML, since as a collection of modelling notations with the addition of profiles involving specific stereotypes, it can be used for building many different models, and has been.  In particular, there has been considerable work on using for modelling both hardware and software aspects of real time systems, and for SoC design including as a specification mechanism for SystemC.  With UML, given the generality of notations and the ability to define specific semantics on it, it is the use models that count, not the fact that it originated in the specification of software systems &#8211; one can argue it has been expanded greatly out of its original scope.  You should look at the ROOM methodology that started out at BNR, then ObjecTime, then Rational (ROSE-RT), then IBM &#8211; as written up in the book Real-Time Object-Oriented Modeling by Bran Selic , Garth Gullekson , Paul T. Ward (Wiley, 1994) for a thread that influenced UML 2.0 and went beyond just the software domain, and at more recent works such as UML for Real by Lavagno, Martin (that&#8217;s me) and Selic (Springer, 2003), Executable UML by Stephen Mellor and  Marc Balcer (Addison-Wesley, 2002) and UML for SoC design (Mueller and Martin (that&#8217;s me again), Springer, 2005) for modelling approaches that can indeed spill into the ESL domain.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Gene Bushuyev</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Bushuyev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-24</guid>
		<description>What is typically regarded as ESL, from software point of view, is a subset of Event-Driven Architecture (EDA again :-). This architecture is nothing new or specific to SLD, just happened to be very natural for TLM as well as higher system level abstractions, that don&#039;t even have any &quot;E&quot; in them, but simply rely on event-driven mechanism.
Regarding UML, it&#039;s a completely different software model, and in interests of clarity it shouldn&#039;t be equated or considered part of ESL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is typically regarded as ESL, from software point of view, is a subset of Event-Driven Architecture (EDA again <img src='http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> . This architecture is nothing new or specific to SLD, just happened to be very natural for TLM as well as higher system level abstractions, that don&#8217;t even have any &#8220;E&#8221; in them, but simply rely on event-driven mechanism.<br />
Regarding UML, it&#8217;s a completely different software model, and in interests of clarity it shouldn&#8217;t be equated or considered part of ESL.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Steve Leibson</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Leibson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-22</guid>
		<description>&quot;When I use a word,&quot; Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, &quot;it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.&quot; - Through The Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll.

In other words, I don&#039;t think any one company or spokesperson gets to define what ESL is or isn&#039;t. I have seen a lot of interesting experiments with tools that help designers create designs at the &quot;electronic system level&quot; and I am loathe to anoint just one of these as the one true path. At this moment, maintaining &quot;clarity&quot; as to the &quot;true&quot; meaning of ESL is far, far less important to me than finding design methods that let mere mortals successfully design systems containing hundreds of millions of gates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When I use a word,&#8221; Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, &#8220;it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.&#8221; &#8211; Through The Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll.</p>
<p>In other words, I don&#8217;t think any one company or spokesperson gets to define what ESL is or isn&#8217;t. I have seen a lot of interesting experiments with tools that help designers create designs at the &#8220;electronic system level&#8221; and I am loathe to anoint just one of these as the one true path. At this moment, maintaining &#8220;clarity&#8221; as to the &#8220;true&#8221; meaning of ESL is far, far less important to me than finding design methods that let mere mortals successfully design systems containing hundreds of millions of gates.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Grant Martin</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-21</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.&quot;

    * Hamlet, Act I, scene v

I think ultimately the users of SLD and ESL tools and methods will end up defining them &quot;with their feet&quot;, and will define the level of fuzz in the terms vs. the level of precise clarity.   However, here are a couple of examples of fuzz that indicate, in my book, how hard it is to state definitively that ESL MUST have hardware, and SLD MUST be all about function.  (even if &quot;hardware implementation is not the focus of these languages&quot;).
1.  UML:   UML is not a language, but a &quot;meta-notation&quot; that through profiling, allows the creation of domain-specific notations or languages.  Although driven from software roots, UML profiles for SystemC (for hardware definition) have been created by several groups including a consortium of companies in Japan, by STMicroelectronics, and several academic research groups.  Is UML in this use model an SLD tool, an ESL tool, or does it cross the fuzzy line?
2.   SPW (was Comdisco, then Cadence Alta, then Cadence mainstream, and now CoWare).   SPW allows you to describe algorithms in floating point, then refine them into fixed point, and then, if you want, using the HDS (hardware development system - although I may not be up on the current names CoWare is using) you can further refine the algorithm into an RTL implementation by substituting hardware/RTL blocks for algorithmic ones.   Is SPW in this use case an SLD tool, an ESL tool or does it cross the fuzzy line.
3.  Matlab and Simulink are also crossing the similar line into HW implementation, and although they are primarily algorithm oriented (and thus SLD by the definition), they may do more on HW in the future.

There may be a case, as Jon says, to try to clearly label the use models and define them more precisely, to reduce confusion.   But I think the ESL and SLD terms are probably likely to remain somewhat loose in definition and application.

But as always, designers can change the game by their actions here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<br />
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.&#8221;</p>
<p>    * Hamlet, Act I, scene v</p>
<p>I think ultimately the users of SLD and ESL tools and methods will end up defining them &#8220;with their feet&#8221;, and will define the level of fuzz in the terms vs. the level of precise clarity.   However, here are a couple of examples of fuzz that indicate, in my book, how hard it is to state definitively that ESL MUST have hardware, and SLD MUST be all about function.  (even if &#8220;hardware implementation is not the focus of these languages&#8221;).<br />
1.  UML:   UML is not a language, but a &#8220;meta-notation&#8221; that through profiling, allows the creation of domain-specific notations or languages.  Although driven from software roots, UML profiles for SystemC (for hardware definition) have been created by several groups including a consortium of companies in Japan, by STMicroelectronics, and several academic research groups.  Is UML in this use model an SLD tool, an ESL tool, or does it cross the fuzzy line?<br />
2.   SPW (was Comdisco, then Cadence Alta, then Cadence mainstream, and now CoWare).   SPW allows you to describe algorithms in floating point, then refine them into fixed point, and then, if you want, using the HDS (hardware development system &#8211; although I may not be up on the current names CoWare is using) you can further refine the algorithm into an RTL implementation by substituting hardware/RTL blocks for algorithmic ones.   Is SPW in this use case an SLD tool, an ESL tool or does it cross the fuzzy line.<br />
3.  Matlab and Simulink are also crossing the similar line into HW implementation, and although they are primarily algorithm oriented (and thus SLD by the definition), they may do more on HW in the future.</p>
<p>There may be a case, as Jon says, to try to clearly label the use models and define them more precisely, to reduce confusion.   But I think the ESL and SLD terms are probably likely to remain somewhat loose in definition and application.</p>
<p>But as always, designers can change the game by their actions here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Jon McDonald</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-20</guid>
		<description>This discussion raises some interesting points and I believe highlights the confusion we see in the industry.  Between the domains of System Level Design (SLD) and Electronic System Level (ESL) we need to clearly define what falls into both domains, keeping this line fuzzy only serves to continue the confusion in the industry and with engineers trying to apply tools and methodologies to solve their problems in implementing systems.  The definition Glenn puts forward that ESL must include some representation of the hardware I believe maps well onto what people are trying to accomplish and serves to clearly identify one of the critical attributes of working at the ESL level.  Some representation of the hardware and the beginnings of understanding how the multiple concurrent hardware blocks interact with one another and with software is critical in making the tradeoffs to determine what architecture should be implemented in RTL.  The point of ESL analysis is to explore the implementation space and select the correct architecture to implement before investing the effort in writing RTL.
  I believe there can be a very clean line between the SLD and ESL application areas.  I agree with Shashi’s comments and I think he begins to draw this line between the domains.  I believe System Level Design focuses on the questions of function, can we functionally implement the target system.  This is independent of HW or SW and is really allowing us to identify the algorithms and functional manipulations that are required to satisfy the target application.  Matlab/UML/C/C++ mainly fall into this space.  Yes it is possible to model hardware in these languages, but in general modeling the hardware implementation is not the focus of these languages.
  ESL then is characterized by beginning to include representations of the concurrent blocks and tying these blocks together to understand potential target architectures.  Transaction Level Modeling (TLM), is an attribute of this level of representation.  If ESL is defined to include some concurrent representation of concurrent elements, then TLM is just the description of the way in which these concurrent elements communicate.  TLM does not define the space it is a definition of a method of communication between the elements of the system.
  By separating the SLD and ESL spaces I believe we will enable engineers to more clearly understand how and where specific tools and methodologies can be applied in their system implementation flows.  This does not preclude tools from spanning the SLD and ESL spaces, but it does allow us to clearly articulate what kinds of problems are being solved in the different spaces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion raises some interesting points and I believe highlights the confusion we see in the industry.  Between the domains of System Level Design (SLD) and Electronic System Level (ESL) we need to clearly define what falls into both domains, keeping this line fuzzy only serves to continue the confusion in the industry and with engineers trying to apply tools and methodologies to solve their problems in implementing systems.  The definition Glenn puts forward that ESL must include some representation of the hardware I believe maps well onto what people are trying to accomplish and serves to clearly identify one of the critical attributes of working at the ESL level.  Some representation of the hardware and the beginnings of understanding how the multiple concurrent hardware blocks interact with one another and with software is critical in making the tradeoffs to determine what architecture should be implemented in RTL.  The point of ESL analysis is to explore the implementation space and select the correct architecture to implement before investing the effort in writing RTL.<br />
  I believe there can be a very clean line between the SLD and ESL application areas.  I agree with Shashi’s comments and I think he begins to draw this line between the domains.  I believe System Level Design focuses on the questions of function, can we functionally implement the target system.  This is independent of HW or SW and is really allowing us to identify the algorithms and functional manipulations that are required to satisfy the target application.  Matlab/UML/C/C++ mainly fall into this space.  Yes it is possible to model hardware in these languages, but in general modeling the hardware implementation is not the focus of these languages.<br />
  ESL then is characterized by beginning to include representations of the concurrent blocks and tying these blocks together to understand potential target architectures.  Transaction Level Modeling (TLM), is an attribute of this level of representation.  If ESL is defined to include some concurrent representation of concurrent elements, then TLM is just the description of the way in which these concurrent elements communicate.  TLM does not define the space it is a definition of a method of communication between the elements of the system.<br />
  By separating the SLD and ESL spaces I believe we will enable engineers to more clearly understand how and where specific tools and methodologies can be applied in their system implementation flows.  This does not preclude tools from spanning the SLD and ESL spaces, but it does allow us to clearly articulate what kinds of problems are being solved in the different spaces.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Jakob Engblom</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Jakob Engblom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-19</guid>
		<description>To Brian Bailey: we seem to agree that one problem is that EDA tools look at chip insides, but not at composiing boards from many different chips, and systems from networks of boards. Right?

The sizing of interconnects on heterogeneous multicore chips to me sounds like classic inside-the-chip EDA. So I cannot quite follow the point being made here. It is clear that in principle there is a need for larger-scale design something, but in practice tools today are focused on bringing out new chip designs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Brian Bailey: we seem to agree that one problem is that EDA tools look at chip insides, but not at composiing boards from many different chips, and systems from networks of boards. Right?</p>
<p>The sizing of interconnects on heterogeneous multicore chips to me sounds like classic inside-the-chip EDA. So I cannot quite follow the point being made here. It is clear that in principle there is a need for larger-scale design something, but in practice tools today are focused on bringing out new chip designs.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Keeping the  &#8220;E&#8221;  in ESL by Grant Martin</title>
		<link>http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/2008/10/23/keeping-the-e-in-esl/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/perry/?p=10#comment-18</guid>
		<description>I would argue that user of IP-XACT to support platform assembly is part of &quot;architectural design space exploration&quot; since it can be used as part of a flow that will both help in generation models of a platform and in generating downstream implementation of an assembly of chosen platform components.    Indeed, since IP-XACT (SPIRIT was a much better name in my opinion ....) was driven in large part by Mentor&#039;s Platform Express, which is counted by Mentor as an ESL tool (look at the Mentor Electronic System Level Product web pages under Platform-based design), this is certainly part of the ESL spectrum.   Maybe architectural DSE is too limiting a term, but this is certainly one of the aims of Platform Express.   Bernard&#039;s suggestion of the term &quot;specification-level design&quot; is an interesting one, albeit apt on a TLA basis to be confused with the more general SLD=System-Level Design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that user of IP-XACT to support platform assembly is part of &#8220;architectural design space exploration&#8221; since it can be used as part of a flow that will both help in generation models of a platform and in generating downstream implementation of an assembly of chosen platform components.    Indeed, since IP-XACT (SPIRIT was a much better name in my opinion &#8230;.) was driven in large part by Mentor&#8217;s Platform Express, which is counted by Mentor as an ESL tool (look at the Mentor Electronic System Level Product web pages under Platform-based design), this is certainly part of the ESL spectrum.   Maybe architectural DSE is too limiting a term, but this is certainly one of the aims of Platform Express.   Bernard&#8217;s suggestion of the term &#8220;specification-level design&#8221; is an interesting one, albeit apt on a TLA basis to be confused with the more general SLD=System-Level Design.</p>
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